Da es schon einen Faden zu Quellen für die Nage-waza-ura-no-kata gibt, hier ein Faden mit Videodemonstrationen der Kata abseits der im anderen Faden erwähnten.
Wenn verfügbar gebe ich Uke und Tori mit an.
Tori: Benjamin Rott / Uke: Stefan Franke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKysVS1Jqu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKysVS1Jqu0
Tori: Sayaka Torra / Uke: Ken Kokka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMbqjAMt6mg
Tori: Mirko Zemva / Uke: Anna Selitz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeEtT-lMXY0
Tori: Jörg Ladenthin / Uke: Mirko Zemva
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgQXSbe08to
Tori: Paolo Malaguti / Uke: Fabio Parnigoni
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2LZcQ96OAo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlr4RIN0KU
Tori: unbekannt / Uke: unbekannt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijCWJofSnNQ
Zur Qualität der einzelnen Ausführung kann diskutiert werden.
Videos Nage-waza-ura-no-kata
-
s.Olli
- Grün Gurt Träger
- Beiträge: 83
- Registriert: 18.07.2017, 14:46
- Bundesland: Hessen
- Verein: SV Blau-Gelb Darmstadt e.V.
Re: Videos Nage-waza-ura-no-kata
Hallo, die Videos sind ja schon interessant. Kann jemand ein Buch mit Erklärungen der Nage-waza-ura-no-Kata empfehlen?
-
Lippe
- 3. Dan Träger
- Beiträge: 791
- Registriert: 29.11.2004, 13:05
- Bundesland: Baden-Württemberg
- Verein: TSV Freudenstadt 1862 e.V.
- Kontaktdaten:
Re: Videos Nage-waza-ura-no-kata
In einem anderen Faden werden Quellen zur Nage-waza-ura-no-Kata ("Mifune-Kata") genannt.
-
Cichorei Kano
- Braun Gurt Träger
- Beiträge: 254
- Registriert: 01.11.2007, 18:57
Re: Videos Nage-waza-ura-no-kata
I do not know what your level of proficiency is in judo. This question is important, since the less one knows the more one can learn from anyone irrespective of what they know.
One of the reasons that on several of the seminars I have given I have been asked to teach some of the more 'unusual' kata, is that we are very fortunate that these "less common kata" have not yet been tainted by the lack of understanding of the IJF and kata and that what in consequence they have been enforcing on the judo audience. With the five basic kata (nage-, katame-, kime-, jû and Kôdôkan goshinjutsu), attempting to teach these properly has been an exercise in futility because those present from the moment they leave the seminar automatically revert back to what they believe they must do to please those who will judge them during a dan-rank exam or an kata competition. In this way the vicious circle of nonsensical kata demonstrations is fed and maintained. This is the consequence of the sportification of kata and the increasing deviation from the intentions of Kanô Jigorô. Perhaps it comes as shock, but I assure you that Kanô nowhere talks or writes of kata as some kind of demonstration you should be doing to others you do for others, with everyone --hopefully-- gasping in awe for you.
With these 'other kata' we still have some hope left ... still. However, to get the message properly across it is important that you get taught its principles and riai. Mifune has written some very wise words about kata. They are not commonly known among jûdôka or at the Kôdôkan, but they are important as they would not allow so much misrepresentation as is commonly done with the typical kata of Kôdôkan approved by Kanô. it is easy to mislead the general jûdô public with the kata of Kôdôkan since Kanô has rarely spoken or written specifically about this or that kata. This allows any high-rankied Kôdôkan teacher to claim whatever nonsense, since really no one of those attending has studied the words of Kanô in the original sources and can offer a well-founded rebuttal. Besides, most jûdôka present are opportunistic enough that they are more interested in keeping everyone as friend and what in future may be useful to them that comes out of such friendly relations, instead of seeking fo the core and truth. Hence no one will ask annoying questions such as "please, can you show me some evidence where Kanô says that kata are demonstrations or meant as demonstrations or ceremonies". The reality is, however, quite simple: the purpose of kata is no different than the purpose of randori, and this is exactly the problem.
I would like to thank Caesar for kindly collecting these links. I am aware that forum guidelines do not allow posts to talk about individuals, which I think is excellent, but I would like to make a statement overall without targeting or criticizing anyone in particular, especially those who are brave enough to have their judo skills videotaped and posted online. Really, I think, Caesar has already point out my thoughts when he wrote "Zur Qualität der einzelnen Ausführung kann diskutiert werden."
This is indeed so, and I would not recommend using as an example any of these videos, at least not as an example of what nage-waza ura-no-kata is supposed to be. Why not ? Because what they do is exactly that what this kata is not about. The kata is a vehicle obviously meant to improve your jûdô. These links do not show good jûdô, or jûdô that has visibly improved from doing what they are doing; instead, they are completely missing the point. I understand that if one has no experience whatsoever with this kata, that just learning the order, or an overal idea can be obtained from anything no matter what the quality might be.
Those bravely taping their kata should not feel hurt by my comments, as really the problem is the same we see with the Kôdôkan videos and hundreds of people have bought or downloaded those videos, and the problem is the same, with the Kôdôkan completely missing the point in most of their kata most of the time.
I started doing this kata in the 1980s, I don't recall exactly when without checking my notes, but I guess it must be between 30 and 35 years ago. It takes a long time to fully grasp the subtleties and finess that Mifune is using and attempting to transfer. One only has to look at some of the recordings of his own students, and one will see --if one grasps the kata sufficiently-- the extent to which his own students are largely failing to apply the essence of the kata. It is thàt difficult. When one looks at the films of Mifune, just as with any other kata, one will see very different things depending on what your own level of skill is and your familiarity with the kata.
There are not many teaching texts on this kata. I know because I authored one of them that is, however, not available to the general public and does not (yet) exist in Germany. It will be included in a book I have been preparing for some time.
I would recommend that you find the series which our friend Tutor has kindly authored for "Der Budoka". It is in German, and has detailed serial pictures, sometimes compares different options. It is not the end point as it is primarily concerned with the mechanics rather than the riai, which is only normal as you cannot reverse the learning pattern. If you can get on top of the mechanics as described, you will already have achieved quite a bit. The rest will come with just another 25-30 years of experience, maybe quicker if you can work with a competent teacher.
Do be aware of what I tend to tell my students when teaching kata: "Even a retarded monkey in the end can probably copy the mechanical steps of any kata, but it isn't kata and has nothing to do with kata, so please, do not try to be the monkey".
Nage-waza ura-no-kata is a go-no-sen, although it is also possible to perform it as sen-sen-no-sen. Doing so is not a violation or riai, but an application Mifune himself provided. Ultimately both go-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are essential to master proper jûdô. As with many of these videos, uke doing something and then waiting half-way for tori to do his thing, that is totally missing the riai and the point this kata is trying to make. Properly practiced, and yes, that is the essence of kata: "practice",
Good luck !
One of the reasons that on several of the seminars I have given I have been asked to teach some of the more 'unusual' kata, is that we are very fortunate that these "less common kata" have not yet been tainted by the lack of understanding of the IJF and kata and that what in consequence they have been enforcing on the judo audience. With the five basic kata (nage-, katame-, kime-, jû and Kôdôkan goshinjutsu), attempting to teach these properly has been an exercise in futility because those present from the moment they leave the seminar automatically revert back to what they believe they must do to please those who will judge them during a dan-rank exam or an kata competition. In this way the vicious circle of nonsensical kata demonstrations is fed and maintained. This is the consequence of the sportification of kata and the increasing deviation from the intentions of Kanô Jigorô. Perhaps it comes as shock, but I assure you that Kanô nowhere talks or writes of kata as some kind of demonstration you should be doing to others you do for others, with everyone --hopefully-- gasping in awe for you.
With these 'other kata' we still have some hope left ... still. However, to get the message properly across it is important that you get taught its principles and riai. Mifune has written some very wise words about kata. They are not commonly known among jûdôka or at the Kôdôkan, but they are important as they would not allow so much misrepresentation as is commonly done with the typical kata of Kôdôkan approved by Kanô. it is easy to mislead the general jûdô public with the kata of Kôdôkan since Kanô has rarely spoken or written specifically about this or that kata. This allows any high-rankied Kôdôkan teacher to claim whatever nonsense, since really no one of those attending has studied the words of Kanô in the original sources and can offer a well-founded rebuttal. Besides, most jûdôka present are opportunistic enough that they are more interested in keeping everyone as friend and what in future may be useful to them that comes out of such friendly relations, instead of seeking fo the core and truth. Hence no one will ask annoying questions such as "please, can you show me some evidence where Kanô says that kata are demonstrations or meant as demonstrations or ceremonies". The reality is, however, quite simple: the purpose of kata is no different than the purpose of randori, and this is exactly the problem.
I would like to thank Caesar for kindly collecting these links. I am aware that forum guidelines do not allow posts to talk about individuals, which I think is excellent, but I would like to make a statement overall without targeting or criticizing anyone in particular, especially those who are brave enough to have their judo skills videotaped and posted online. Really, I think, Caesar has already point out my thoughts when he wrote "Zur Qualität der einzelnen Ausführung kann diskutiert werden."
This is indeed so, and I would not recommend using as an example any of these videos, at least not as an example of what nage-waza ura-no-kata is supposed to be. Why not ? Because what they do is exactly that what this kata is not about. The kata is a vehicle obviously meant to improve your jûdô. These links do not show good jûdô, or jûdô that has visibly improved from doing what they are doing; instead, they are completely missing the point. I understand that if one has no experience whatsoever with this kata, that just learning the order, or an overal idea can be obtained from anything no matter what the quality might be.
Those bravely taping their kata should not feel hurt by my comments, as really the problem is the same we see with the Kôdôkan videos and hundreds of people have bought or downloaded those videos, and the problem is the same, with the Kôdôkan completely missing the point in most of their kata most of the time.
I started doing this kata in the 1980s, I don't recall exactly when without checking my notes, but I guess it must be between 30 and 35 years ago. It takes a long time to fully grasp the subtleties and finess that Mifune is using and attempting to transfer. One only has to look at some of the recordings of his own students, and one will see --if one grasps the kata sufficiently-- the extent to which his own students are largely failing to apply the essence of the kata. It is thàt difficult. When one looks at the films of Mifune, just as with any other kata, one will see very different things depending on what your own level of skill is and your familiarity with the kata.
There are not many teaching texts on this kata. I know because I authored one of them that is, however, not available to the general public and does not (yet) exist in Germany. It will be included in a book I have been preparing for some time.
I would recommend that you find the series which our friend Tutor has kindly authored for "Der Budoka". It is in German, and has detailed serial pictures, sometimes compares different options. It is not the end point as it is primarily concerned with the mechanics rather than the riai, which is only normal as you cannot reverse the learning pattern. If you can get on top of the mechanics as described, you will already have achieved quite a bit. The rest will come with just another 25-30 years of experience, maybe quicker if you can work with a competent teacher.
Do be aware of what I tend to tell my students when teaching kata: "Even a retarded monkey in the end can probably copy the mechanical steps of any kata, but it isn't kata and has nothing to do with kata, so please, do not try to be the monkey".
Nage-waza ura-no-kata is a go-no-sen, although it is also possible to perform it as sen-sen-no-sen. Doing so is not a violation or riai, but an application Mifune himself provided. Ultimately both go-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are essential to master proper jûdô. As with many of these videos, uke doing something and then waiting half-way for tori to do his thing, that is totally missing the riai and the point this kata is trying to make. Properly practiced, and yes, that is the essence of kata: "practice",
Good luck !