http://www.kishinkai.co.uk/2017/06/04/i ... tradition/
... ein freundliches, entspanntes und sehr interessantes Interview.
Viel Spaß,
HBt.
Kuroda T.
Re: Kuroda T.
“When he was 20 years old, he became the youngest practitioner ever to receive the title of Hanshi Hachidan (8th dan) of Kobudo from the Dai Nippon Butokutai.“HBt. hat geschrieben: ↑06.05.2019, 13:15 http://www.kishinkai.co.uk/2017/06/04/i ... tradition/
... ein freundliches, entspanntes und sehr interessantes Interview.
Viel Spaß,
HBt.
Also irgendeiner muss da was falsch verstanden haben.... aber ich habe es trotzdem gerne gelesen.
I founded a new system for physical culture and mental training as well as for winning contests. I called this "Kodokan Judo",(J. Kano 1898)
Techniques are only the words of the language judo (Cichorei Kano, 24.12.2008)
Techniques are only the words of the language judo (Cichorei Kano, 24.12.2008)
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Cichorei Kano
- Braun Gurt Träger
- Beiträge: 254
- Registriert: 01.11.2007, 18:57
Re: Kuroda T.
These things need to be put in context. Please, note that I wrote the following text as an objective clarification and not as a challenge or criticism:
1. It is very difficult to compare ranks between different martial arts, hence one should not attempt to compare progress in kobudô with progress in jûdô. There are many arts were progress to very high ranks is considerably faster than it is according to today's Kôdôkan procedures.
2. In some arts, such as notably jûdô we can see historical shifts. In the system as conceived by Kanô ranks such as 10th dan and higher were considered as "achievable" and there are several cases of people obtaining 9th dan in their early 50's and 10th dan in their 60's. This is very different from today, where 10th dan is pretty much an unachievable rank, and the few who do or did are very aged people.
3. The original Butokukai closed in 1946, and should not be confused with the current Modern or International Butokukai or Butokukai even though it was intended as a 'continuation'.
4. Several Japanese records including the Japanese Wikipedia page suggest that no mistranslation was involved: "そして鉄山は、19歳のときに教士号を、20歳のときには古武道八段範士号を賜った。ただし、発行した大日本武徳会は戦前の大日本武徳会とは関係がない任意団体である。また、鉄山自身、自分の稽古に全く納得していなかったという" [Transl.: "Consequently, Tetsuzan, at the time 19 yrs old received 'kyôshi', and when he was 20 yrs old became 8th "dan hanshi" of kobudô. However, the Dai Nippon Butokukai is a group of volunteers that has nothing to do with the pre-War Dai Nippon Butokukai. Furthermore, Tetsuzan himself was not totally convinced of his own training.]
5. There exist all kinds of scenarios that can clarify unusual cases, such as when a discipline or art is hereditary and the headmaster dies and has only one son, and that son is still very young, just like there are cases in history where someone becomes king or emperor when still being a child. The famous movie "The Last Emperor" shows such a case featuring Pǔyí 溥儀, who was crowned emperor of China in 1908 at the age of 2 yrs. In this case, the interview specifically points out that Tetsuzan became sôke of his art, which implies that we are indeed dealing with an hereditary school: "When he [his grandfather] died, my father simply told me that he had told him that I was to be his successor. Things happened like this, very naturally." So, clearly this happened all informally, no exams, tests, no external panels involved. As the head of a school evidently needs to hold a very senior rank in order to carry and exert authority over other older and longer practicing members of the school, he will be somehow have to receive such a rank soon even if still way to young to have otherwise really earned such a senior rank.
We note that in jûdô too, Kanô is associated with credentials that are nearly impossible to obtain with such little experience and training, and that he was only about 21 years old with barely 4.5 years of martial arts experience when he established the Kôdôkan. The shinan menkyo certificate issued by Iikubo was issued after barely 2 years of Kitô-ryû practice when in reality it takes about three times that long to obtain.
Even in modern days you will still find in several countries members of royal families who have obtained university degrees at prestigious universities (Harvard, Stanford, Yale) in minimal time who were almost never seen or known to have formally taken classes and exams in the presence of other students. Yet their credentials are legally as real as those of any other student. One cannot blame those people as it is not their 'fault', and makes part of certain official protocol taken care off by powerful people at government level.
In the case of this person, the Japanese texts indicate that his titles were obtained after a formal letter of recommendation was sent to the (Modern) Butokukai.
1. It is very difficult to compare ranks between different martial arts, hence one should not attempt to compare progress in kobudô with progress in jûdô. There are many arts were progress to very high ranks is considerably faster than it is according to today's Kôdôkan procedures.
2. In some arts, such as notably jûdô we can see historical shifts. In the system as conceived by Kanô ranks such as 10th dan and higher were considered as "achievable" and there are several cases of people obtaining 9th dan in their early 50's and 10th dan in their 60's. This is very different from today, where 10th dan is pretty much an unachievable rank, and the few who do or did are very aged people.
3. The original Butokukai closed in 1946, and should not be confused with the current Modern or International Butokukai or Butokukai even though it was intended as a 'continuation'.
4. Several Japanese records including the Japanese Wikipedia page suggest that no mistranslation was involved: "そして鉄山は、19歳のときに教士号を、20歳のときには古武道八段範士号を賜った。ただし、発行した大日本武徳会は戦前の大日本武徳会とは関係がない任意団体である。また、鉄山自身、自分の稽古に全く納得していなかったという" [Transl.: "Consequently, Tetsuzan, at the time 19 yrs old received 'kyôshi', and when he was 20 yrs old became 8th "dan hanshi" of kobudô. However, the Dai Nippon Butokukai is a group of volunteers that has nothing to do with the pre-War Dai Nippon Butokukai. Furthermore, Tetsuzan himself was not totally convinced of his own training.]
5. There exist all kinds of scenarios that can clarify unusual cases, such as when a discipline or art is hereditary and the headmaster dies and has only one son, and that son is still very young, just like there are cases in history where someone becomes king or emperor when still being a child. The famous movie "The Last Emperor" shows such a case featuring Pǔyí 溥儀, who was crowned emperor of China in 1908 at the age of 2 yrs. In this case, the interview specifically points out that Tetsuzan became sôke of his art, which implies that we are indeed dealing with an hereditary school: "When he [his grandfather] died, my father simply told me that he had told him that I was to be his successor. Things happened like this, very naturally." So, clearly this happened all informally, no exams, tests, no external panels involved. As the head of a school evidently needs to hold a very senior rank in order to carry and exert authority over other older and longer practicing members of the school, he will be somehow have to receive such a rank soon even if still way to young to have otherwise really earned such a senior rank.
We note that in jûdô too, Kanô is associated with credentials that are nearly impossible to obtain with such little experience and training, and that he was only about 21 years old with barely 4.5 years of martial arts experience when he established the Kôdôkan. The shinan menkyo certificate issued by Iikubo was issued after barely 2 years of Kitô-ryû practice when in reality it takes about three times that long to obtain.
Even in modern days you will still find in several countries members of royal families who have obtained university degrees at prestigious universities (Harvard, Stanford, Yale) in minimal time who were almost never seen or known to have formally taken classes and exams in the presence of other students. Yet their credentials are legally as real as those of any other student. One cannot blame those people as it is not their 'fault', and makes part of certain official protocol taken care off by powerful people at government level.
In the case of this person, the Japanese texts indicate that his titles were obtained after a formal letter of recommendation was sent to the (Modern) Butokukai.
Zuletzt geändert von Cichorei Kano am 08.05.2019, 17:02, insgesamt 3-mal geändert.
Erläuterungen
Vielen Dank "CK", für die weiteren (klärenden) Informationen u. Erinnerungen.
Gruß,
HBt.
Gruß,
HBt.