Neuer 10. Dan-Träger (IJF)

Hier geht es um Fragen und Inhalte zu den Kyu und Dan Prüfungen
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caesar
3. Dan Träger
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Re: Neuer 10. Dan-Träger (IJF)

Beitrag von caesar » 07.07.2017, 17:15

Vielen Dank für die Information.
Auf der IJF-Seite findet sich dazu noch nichts, allerdings wird ihm die Graduierung erst zum Judo WM am 27. August offiziell überreicht.

Es ist schön, die Seite der nicht japanischen 10. Dan wachsen zu sehen.

Schade, dass es immer eine Zweiklassengesellschaft geben wird zwischen Kodokan- und IJF- Dangraden.

Insgesamt ist die Situation um den 10. Dan mittlerweile sehr verstrickt. (Kodokan/ IJF/ Nationale Verbände/ unabhängige Verbände) Wikipedia listet mittlerweile 36 10. Dan-Träger, wobei Yosh Uchida doppelt aufgeführt ist, der Deutsche Dieter Teige allerdings fehlt.

Nach Japan tun sich Korea und die USA mit 10. Dan-Träger hervor.

Cichorei Kano
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Blau Gurt Träger
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Re: Neuer 10. Dan-Träger (IJF)

Beitrag von Cichorei Kano » 10.07.2017, 00:53

caesar hat geschrieben:
07.07.2017, 17:15
Vielen Dank für die Information.
Auf der IJF-Seite findet sich dazu noch nichts, allerdings wird ihm die Graduierung erst zum Judo WM am 27. August offiziell überreicht.

Es ist schön, die Seite der nicht japanischen 10. Dan wachsen zu sehen.

Schade, dass es immer eine Zweiklassengesellschaft geben wird zwischen Kodokan- und IJF- Dangraden.

Insgesamt ist die Situation um den 10. Dan mittlerweile sehr verstrickt. (Kodokan/ IJF/ Nationale Verbände/ unabhängige Verbände) Wikipedia listet mittlerweile 36 10. Dan-Träger, wobei Yosh Uchida doppelt aufgeführt ist, der Deutsche Dieter Teige allerdings fehlt.

Nach Japan tun sich Korea und die USA mit 10. Dan-Träger hervor.
Indeed so, the highest ranks in Kôdôkan jûdô have become a rather convoluted matter. The responsibility for this lies with both the West and Japan. The perception in the West often has been one of lack of humility and of miscomprehending promotions as something one deserves simply for having held long enough one's current rank. It is what is called "misplaced self-entitlement". Precisely what separates and what should separate a 7th from an 8th dan, or from a 9th of 10th dan is rather unclear in the West apart from the fact that one likely has spent a set amount of time since receiving the previous one, and that grade regulations may specify a different additional kata one has to know for 7th dan when compared to 8th dan. Rahter, the West has come to understand that likely one has to be"very good"which ... "can only mean" --according to the West-- having obtained some important contest medal. Some federations have attempted to created distinctions, for example, by limiting access to certain high ranks only to those having achieved specific national or international medals or titles, in this way reducing the value of ranks to a matter of athletic ability with little or no connection to technical skill, pedagogical insight,or even knowledge of judo overall.

To convince the powers that award these ranks that you are deserving, it appears not only the facts matter, but so often does a good deal of political maneuvering. In reality this is usually achieved in a specific way, namely that the person in question himself holds an important function in the awarding of ranks. This then is carefully played fully realizing that the others in the awarding committee likely have the ambition of obtaining their own next higher rank, for which you would be of critical help ... Add to this the necessary doses of chauvinism and every half-wit in the West who has spentlong enough in jûdô will seriously believe they are deserving of 9th or even 10th dan ...

The IJF around the change of the millenium has wished to reduce this political maneuvering and inconsistencies, make ranks more universal in terms of international acceptance so the proposal was born to have 8th dan only issues by the EJU and 9 and 10th dan by the IJF. To date, only the UK seems to strictly adhere to this system. Most national federations often politically dominated by one or another individual no one abroad has ever heard of are reluctant to havea a third-party committee judge the prestige of its members, as they maybe insufficiently chauvinistic to their liking. Could you imagine Iranian Committee members objectively judging whether one or another Israeli start is deserving of 10th dan or vice versa ? Maybe the relationship of most countries is not so extreme, but nevertheless, why run the risk if the deal for your 10th promotion can be closed overa pint of beer in your own country. I could tell you stories of how people have tried to "please me"in order to be more willing in recognzing their ... "exceptional jûdô abilities likely worthy of 10th dan".

Right now the top dan-ranks and their value are totally heterogenic, convoluted, devaluated, and the system is confusing and inconsistent. If you are a member of an IJF federation and obtain 3rd kyû, most will likely proudly state that they hold IJF 3rd kyû, the same for black belt. But is this still so when 9th or 10th dan, considering that the IJF has a process of its own for these ranks ? It is confusing and inconsistent to say the least.

No doubt that Kôdôkan ranks are unequivocally considered as the most prestigious, again not always free of serious concerns. Some countries still have the privilege of being able to have their rank directly converted into Kôdôkan rank. Consider the jûdô federations in the US. The oldest regional organizations that founded one of the federations have the privilege to award ranks up to 5th dan without having to pass via the national federation. Ranks are awarded by a teacher, not a committee, and the teacher decides on the procedure. In many, even most cases, there simply is no procedure. The only formality is to fill out a form. In reality that means that any such teacher can just give you a rank up to godan, just like that,and most of these do take place in that way without any exam whatsoever. The US Kôdôkan Committee will then recommend your rank to the Kôdôkan, which upon approval --and in most cases there is no objection-- converts your rank into Kôdôkan rank. There you go, you now are a prestigious Kôdôkan godan without having won a single competition or passed any exam, and you can now -as often is the case-- start questioning the value of dan-rank holders in Germany, France, whatever, despite all these jûdôka likely having been formally assessed by a jury. That is the reality !

So far, only a handful of Westerners ever have been considered good enough, or better, having a sufficiently strong relation with the Kôdôkan to be awarded 8th dan, all but one of them European, who also did pass exams, so no bad word there. The highest Kôdôkan rank held by any Western IJF or national federation 10th dan is 6th dan. What does that say ? Does that mean IJF 10th dan really equals Kôdôkan Tth dan ? Well no, but what it exactly does mean, I am not sure of myself. Clearly you have entirely different standards and gauges, with ranks reflectings something different. We can complain about it, but such discrepancies are not without precedents in other areas. Is a PhD from Heidelberg of exactly the same value as one from the Technische Universität zu God-knows-where?

Even so, within the same organization ranks clearly reflect a great variety of skills and knowledge, and this is equally so for Japan. To some extent, this is normal. Whey you graduate from high school or University, a person who obtains a 90% score gets the same degree as a person who scores 60%, but the difference in percentage suggests a significant difference in skills. At least, everyone who successfully passes his exams should get his diploma. Not so in jûdô ! Even though in Kanô's definition, all jûdô ranks were obtrainable. He did not intend to make 9th of 10th dan as something mythical. His best students actually achieved 10th dan, unless they died before. Today, it is doubtful whether these ranks can beobtained simply because a jûdôka is proficient, knowledgeable, and adheres to jûdô's principles in life and exercise. if you are not heavily involved in jûdô politics or haven't successfully lobbied your federation's president. In consequence,the ranks of 9th and 10th dan appear often being awarded by people who do not and cannot have the level of understanding necessary to grasp what those ranks are and reflect, something that I think, is rather concerning.

So chances as a Westerner are considerable that you will rever become a Japanese red belt-wearing master. I know and have known quite a number of these people who did obtain 9th or 10th dan and have asked them rather specific questions on jûdô, questions of a technical nature, philosophical, historical, cultural, theoretical, whatever. In most cases simply by their age and time in jûdô they knew many anecdotes. That makes them 'interesting', but for the most part, my conclusion was: is that all a 9th or 10th dan really is ? Through their advanced age, they usually were well-known, and admittedly I was not yet around when they were in their competitive prime, but even talking about some very fundamental issues of Kanô or jûdô they often seemed to know less than your average Western popular softcover jûdô book. Mostly they had been around longer than their counterparts, yes, and in this way became established beyond doubt, as perceived by the rest.

This is not mere criticism, more like a moment of truth. We all emerge on a lifelong journey in jûdô, something for which we, at least I did, have sacrificed an enormous number of things. Those who are 9th or 10th dan, for us are demi-Gods, mythical figures whose pictures we see in famous books, pictures that sometimes hang in our dôjô. When you finally meet them, you are then personally confronted with the lack of answers some of these people have, the limitation of knowledge, it is an outright painful experience, one of the greatest disappointments. The mythic figures are like statues toppled off their sockets, are nothing but humans, not even as exceptional as we would have liked them to be. They can't walk on water, they can't fly, and they do not possess the final wisdom of jûdô like we expected Kanô would have, they do not move around with the lightfooted, dynamic styleof Mifune, and old films show in competition they often were better than their counterparts, but today would not even survive the preliminaries of an average contest with those skills, even if we just retain those opponents who practice skillful jûdô rather than power jûdô. This is the situation TODAY. It clearly used to be different. Legendary figures such as Mifune and Nagaoka were legendary for a reason. Their writings, their pioneering work, the films that have survived, unequivocally document these skills and knowledge. The only valid conclusion is that these figures are very far removed from your typical 9th or 10th dan today.

When I asked a number of friends of the same nationality as one of the most recent 10th dan holders how they felt about it, all without any exception answered: "no comment". That says something ...

Japan has created the myth of being jûdô 10th dan and we have sustained it perhaps, because if the myth exists, we could one day benefit from it ourselves. The journey towards the deepest secrets of jûdô is not a fun one, but one filled with disappointment, frustration and missed promises. Jûdô in Japan, in the world is hardly the discipline that according to Kanô would ultimately need to further our intellectual development, or even make us better humans. I have met some of the worst human beings in and through jûdô, a much higher proportion than I meet in the real world. There is virtually no scholarly discourse today that furthers jûdô in itself. instead, what it is, what it has become is a quasi-sect, a practice that lives using the same pilars of support that a religion does. A practice that in reality relies on hierarchy, sustained by cult, myth and all kept in place to support those who benefit the most from that being supported.

With something as chaotic as Jûdô is it really a surprise that everyting surrounding the value of a 9th or 10th dan is chaotic as well. The ideas of Kanô hold limited promise and can be applied to aspects of life, but those with the highest ranks in jûdô clearly are not up to the task to expand and further those ideas. At the most they are copy cats. There are rare exceptions who could be seen developing and exploring previously unexpored areas. Mifune was like that. His idea, techniques, approaches hold value, Okano-sensei is another example, perhaps not so much at the intellectually level, but at the practial level having developed all kinds of technical approaches that nowhere in the literatue can be found back before he came up with them. Ironically, Okano-senseis still has the same rank he obtained in the middle of the 1970s, showing once more how nonsensical jûdô's ranking system has become. These two people I mentioned are creative geniuses and show how it is possible to take the essence of Kanô's jûdô and built on it.

HBt.
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It is really bad

Beitrag von HBt. » 11.07.2017, 17:06

... irgendwie traurig, zwar menschlich, aber auch niederschmetternd zugleich :cry:.

So, und was ist nun aus "Kanos Idee" geworden? Keine Ahnung! Sind wir (alle) Traumtänzer? Nein, das sind wir nicht ... und der politische Murks - den kann man als einzelner, kleiner Judoka getrost beiseitelegen.


Gut finde ich die allgegenwärtige Dan-Verleihungspraxis nicht, doch wer bin ich(?).


BudoRomantische Grüße,
HBt.

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