Beschreibung Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu

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Deshi
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Re: Beschreibung Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu

Beitrag von Deshi » 03.02.2018, 12:56

Danke für die Klarstellung.

Meine ursprüngliche Frage bezog sich nur auf die Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu, nicht auf alle Schulen, die es gab oder gibt.

Meine Frustration war auch nicht als Kritik an Dir oder Deinem Kommentar gedacht, CK. Wie Du ja selbst schreibst,
ist es ungeheuer schwer, einen Einblick die vielen, z.T. sehr verschiedenen und unzugänglichen Koryu zu bekommen.
Wenn selbst Du - und ich halte Dich für jemanden mit einem wirklich umfassenden und hart erarbeiteten Expertenwissen
rund um Judo - bestimmte Fragen zu diesem Thema (aus den von Dir ausführlich dargelegten Gründen) nicht mit
letzter Sicherheit beantworten kannst, zeigt das ja nur, wie schwer es ist, etwas darüber in Erfahrung zu bringen.
Ich würde ja auch nie einen Physiker kritisieren, der Fragen über derzeit nicht messbare Grenzbereiche seines Fachgebiets
nicht mit Sicherheit beantworten kann. Man darf aber sicher etwas nicht persönlich gemeinte Frustration empfinden, wenn es Dinge gibt, die
man gern wüsste, aber womöglich nie wissen wird.

Cichorei Kano
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Re: Beschreibung Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu

Beitrag von Cichorei Kano » 03.02.2018, 19:44

Deshi hat geschrieben:
03.02.2018, 12:56
Danke für die Klarstellung.

Meine ursprüngliche Frage bezog sich nur auf die Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu, nicht auf alle Schulen, die es gab oder gibt.

Meine Frustration war auch nicht als Kritik an Dir oder Deinem Kommentar gedacht, CK. Wie Du ja selbst schreibst,
ist es ungeheuer schwer, einen Einblick die vielen, z.T. sehr verschiedenen und unzugänglichen Koryu zu bekommen.
Wenn selbst Du - und ich halte Dich für jemanden mit einem wirklich umfassenden und hart erarbeiteten Expertenwissen
rund um Judo - bestimmte Fragen zu diesem Thema (aus den von Dir ausführlich dargelegten Gründen) nicht mit
letzter Sicherheit beantworten kannst, zeigt das ja nur, wie schwer es ist, etwas darüber in Erfahrung zu bringen.
Ich würde ja auch nie einen Physiker kritisieren, der Fragen über derzeit nicht messbare Grenzbereiche seines Fachgebiets
nicht mit Sicherheit beantworten kann. Man darf aber sicher etwas nicht persönlich gemeinte Frustration empfinden, wenn es Dinge gibt, die
man gern wüsste, aber womöglich nie wissen wird.
Since Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû is a school that is still active in 2 lineages, those with the highest technical qualifications in it should be able to address your question. Unfortunately, I do not hold menkyo or menkyo kaiden in TSYR. You could compare this with a 5th dan in jûdô likely being able to tell you more technical intricacies about jûdô than a 1st kyÛ.

Our school of Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû did not only practice TSYR, but also Shin-no-shindô-ryû (which I never practised), and Kôdôkan jûdô. For that reason it is difficult for me to say where precisely the separation was between TSYR "randori" and Kôdôkan randori, especially since as far as I am aware TSYR does not normally wear the hakama for its randori "practice". I looked into an elaborate text on the curriculum of the school as written by the former head of the Yagi Torajirô-lineage, and the only place where he mentions randori in addition to the 18 randori techniques is in the following paragraph about "shiai ura":

「試合裏」
柔術における乱捕試合の攻防を想定し、相手が攻撃して来た技の裏を捕って、反対に相手を制する理合を示している。特に「裸体捕」は、捕身・受身(柔道の形演武時に使用する取・受と同様の意味。) 共裸体時における攻防の理合を示している。「裸体捕一本目」」は絞め技であるが、柔道における「酔か砂」絞め枝、保粉そのものであり、技の名称もこの技に由来している。

This section does not tell you anything more about what you want to know. Really, it reminds me of how for example Kôdôkan goshinjutsu was intended, which was not at all what is done today, i.e. a manneristic demonstration of people taking up poses. If you look at the clip of the first public demo of Kôdôkan goshinjutsu it shows something completely different than the static demonstrations we see today. There too it was the intent to randomly attack your opponent, who would simply assemble defenses out of the plethora of defensive techniques Kôdôkan goshinjutsu offered, but it was never intended as doing 21 techniques one after another, just like it has never been the intention when you train jûdô that you practice the 40 techniques of the gokyô one after another.

In a paper by Tôdô Yoshiaki and Murata Naoki, called "The influence of Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû jûjutsu on Kôdôkan jûdô, which appeared in the Bulletin of the Institute of Health and Sport Sciences of the University of Tsukuba, volume 19 of 1996, it has on page 69 a section that addresses the aspect of randori. The full text of that paragraph is:

 一章で見たように,天神真楊流柔術の技は当身
や逆技で構成されており,その稽古法は専ら「形」
で行うものであった。しかし『天神真楊流柔術極
意教習図解』を良く見ていくと,124本の形の最
後に,わずかに『乱捕』の項が見られ,そこには
15本の乱捕技が記載されている。その技を主に使
用する部位によって分類すると,次のようになる。
○手技一小手引。背遂投。
○腰技一沸腰,腰技,腰技の入掛。腰入のケゲロ。
 股沸。
○足技一すくい足。足沸。
○捨身技一捨身捕。
○締技一胴締。ハダカ締。締込。強身締。
○関節技一腕引(腕挫十字固)
 このように,当時「乱捕」が存していたことは
注目に値する。それを裏付ける資料として,嘉納
は天神真楊流柔術の師福田八之助との稽古の有様
を「或時先生から或技で投げられた。自分は早速
起き上がって,今の手はどうしてかけるのですと
きくと,『おいでなさい』といきなり投げ飛ばした。
自分は屈せず立ち向かって,手はどう足はどうい
たしますとしつこくきき質した。すると先生は『さ
あおいでなさい』と言って又投げ飛ばした。白分
もまた同じことを三度聞き返した。今度は『なあ
にお前さん方がそんなことを聞いて分かるもの
か,唯数さえかければ出来るようになる,さあお
いでなさい』と又投げつけた。こういうあんばい
で,稽古は凡て体に会得させたものだ。今日になっ
て思うと,その技は隅返という技であったと思
う」と記され,投技での攻防があったことが想
像できる。そこで天神真楊流柔術の乱捕技と講道
館柔道の技名一覧(五教の技も含む)との関係を
見てみる。

The first part of this paragraph very much as I have indicated before simply refers to names of techniques and does not tell you anything about how precisely these were practised. The last part of this section, really just is one of the well-known anecdotes to which I made reference before and in which Kanô alleges how he was initially repeatedly thrown by his teacher Fukuda Hachinosuke-sensei and couldn't do anything, etc, etc. While as a jûdôka we would be inclined to picture this in the context of randori as we know it in jûdô, we cannot make that conclusion. It is very well possible that this was a static exercise where Fukuda said: "try to resist me when I attempt throwing you", very much like some kata used to be exercised. This is the point I am trying to make: even the sources that exist do not permit an accurate conclusion what precisely this activity entails. When you look at the 1940s movie of Kurosawa The Jûdô Legend and see the mythical fights of Saigô Shirô and his yama-arashi, that way of randori likely accurately depicted randori at the time, but does not look anything like the way we do randori today, and that is even within the same school (Kôdôkan jûdô. This shows how difficult it may be to get accurate knowledge about activities of a long past time, even if their name, idea, and rationale officially is still identical.

Now, the problem is that unlike jûdô which is open, TSYR is not. Even I have the problem, despite being a legitimate (former) "student" and member of TSYR and a researcher, when I ask these questions to leading figures of the ryû (and this is not speculation, since I actually did so), one is being stonewalled. The reason is that the people who get most advanced in koryû often behave elitist and quasi-religious. They also know whatever they tell me I will verify and research. II encountered this specific issue when researching Itsutsu-no-kata, a topic I raised with both the late head of the Yagi Torajirô-lineage in Japan and the current head of the international division (adhering to forum policies I will not name them here). This is a ridiculous situation, but they WILL hide behind claims as that they cannot tell you because it is secret and similar nonsense. This is a major problem because as an academic researcher in the 21st century clearly one strives for transparency, verification, evidence, providing verifiable replicable data, something these koryû people cannot and will not understand. IIt is as if they still live in the 16th or 17th century believing that due to their secret knowledge they can stop bullets from a gun. They seem to suffer from some kind of collective delusion and most of them if entering a real street fight or encounter a trained MMA fighter would be quickly beaten up to pulp. Nevertheless, they like maintaining the cult partly because that is how they attract and groom potential future and current members. They don't like the reality, and that reality is that the essence of martial arts is nothing else but basic Newtonian mechanics.

If you objectively read some of what they write you will quickly understand what I mean, and reference to certain "secrets" which they only know is a constant in trying to label themselves as exclusive or superior. When you look at their lives, not much is visible in terms of their "secret power" or "secret knowledge"; they have to pay taxes just like me and you, they end up in marital problems just like anybody else, and when they get cancer they simply die like many other people with cancer. For those schools where I did learn such"secret knowledge", I can assure you that it is often fantasistic or means nothing in the real world. For example, kappô are techniques that in TSYR make part of the kuden or orally transmitted knowledge either hence making them somewhat secret. Look at this as a rational modern person: modern resuscitation techniques that are extensively tested and have proven effect do the same or better and you can learn them everywhere irrespective of age and find them everywhere on the Internet. If they are secret, then why did the head of the TSYR simply teach them as part of the Kôdôkan International Summer Kata Seminar to hundreds of people present including Westerners who were not part of their school, etc. Whether you know kappô or not, when you are dead, you are dead, they still can't raise the dead, beyond what modern CPR can do.

As you can see, these people themselves behave inconsistent and irrational, but me saying so or proving so is not going to change them, on the contrary. f you dare to question something their teacher said, they will try to label you as disrespectful and isolate you, no matter how kind or respectful you carry out your job; even if they provided some collaboration, they will immediately cease to do so when it appears that your research does not support the claims their school or teacher makes. Unfortunately, I have few other options. Whilst I am pretty sure that my own teacher would have responded to and clarified every question I had, I cannot ask these questions anymore (has been dead for 30 years). I possess rather extensive Japanese texts also about TSYR, but they do not specifically address your questions.

As long as koryû people do not get that there are no battlefields anymore with man-to-man fights where their "secret knowledge" will gain them victory, this is problematic. Whilst I understand you were asking only about TSYR, I also mentioned koryû schools in general, and particular Kitô-ryû because of its relevance for jûdô. In addition, I wanted to illustrate that in comparison, information from TSYR is still much easier to obtain than Kitô-ryû, for 3 reasons: 1. Kitô-ryû is extinct (in the strict sense of the word), 2. The techniques of Kitô-ryû contrary to those of TSYR are encoded, and 3. As a school Kitô-ryû is a multi-budô school, not just jûjutsu, and for this reason and because of its philosophy is far more complicated than TSYR.

Finally, as I said before, what we communicate is based on knowledge we have and what is known. I cannot tell you knowledge that is unknown. What I am trying to say, that what I explained in terms of the way TSYR is organized with only 2 lineages existing anymore is what is officially assumed. It is unknown whether there exist other branches that secretly are still in existence. I have already said that the official lineages as published is largely incomplete and total nonsense. For example, unlike what is claimed it is not true that the Yagi Torajirô lineage only went to Kubota Toshihiro via Sakamoto Fusatarô; it also went to Yoshizawa Kiyoshi and to Yuya Tadashi. It is not even true, before that, that Sakamoto Fusatarô was the only one receiving the lineage from Yagi Torajirô, because it also went to Yasuda Hitoshi, but it remains unclear what happened then and there. Did these people stop teaching, did they not have further successors, or did they, but is it unknown.

Also, it is not true that my lineage, the Inoue Keitarô lineage, ONLY went to Tobari Takisaburô and onwards to Tobari Kazu. Yokoyama Sakujirô, Saigô Shirô, Nakatani Gorô, Miura Kinnosuke, Sakatani Yoshirô, Bori Masanao, Takahashi Suteruku, Ôkubo-sensei, Yamaguchi-sensei, Yanagita Kunio, Inoue Michiyasu, and Inoue Nuitarô, and Sekine Gennai (and onwards to his son Sekine Hideo or Teruo). We know that some of these people died prematurely without successor, such as Yokoyama Sakujirô, but did all of these sensei die without successors ? Uunlikely. What happened to the Inoue family or to the son of Sekine Gennai. Chances are that the latter one is still alive, but none of these people are part of any of the two Japanese associations of Koryû in Japan, and it is not commonly known what happened. These people are all somewhat lost in history, and trying to locate someone who is not known as a member of so and so association is enormously difficult.

I hope that this additional explanation helps you understand why it is so difficult to research some of this in a proper analytical and transparent way, and why instead of helping most schools will do everything to sabotage your research as they know very well that a large part of what they claim is propaganda and half-truths. This is the case for Kôdôkan jûdô, and it is the case for many koryû schools. Knowledge they keep from you, you cannot verify, but from the moment they start telling you things, it is obvious that a serious researcher will seek to verify and cross-reference whatever he learns.
Zuletzt geändert von Cichorei Kano am 04.02.2018, 16:40, insgesamt 5-mal geändert.

HBt.
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Mehr als bedanken ...

Beitrag von HBt. » 04.02.2018, 13:43

kann man sich für die vielen Informationen nicht
:danke

tutor!
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Re: Beschreibung Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu

Beitrag von tutor! » 04.02.2018, 19:42

Die Gründe, warum man sich mit Koryu beschäftigt können sehr unterschiedlich sein und ich möchte niemandes Motivation mit den Beweggründen anderer vergleichen und/oder dies bewerten. Ich persönlich interessiere mich für Tenjin-shinyo-ryu und Kito-ryu, soweit es hilfreich für mein Verständnis von Judo ist.

Interessant ist zum Beispiel, dass "ki" in der Theroie beider Schulen seinen doch recht zentralen Platz hat. Interessant ist aber auch, dass Kano dies in seiner Theorie zu Judo nicht weiter übernommen hat.

Sehr interessant finde ich auch die zentrale Bedeutung des Gleichgewichtsbruchs in beiden Schulen - etwas was angeblich Kanos "Entdeckung" im Randori mit Ikubo war. Wenn Kano das "Geheimnis" des Kuzushi wirklich im Randori entdeckt hat, dann wohl nur, weil es ihm vorher niemand erklärt hat. Teil der Lehre und der Theorie von Kito-ryu (und Tenjin-shinyo-ryu) war es allemale...

Was nun die verschiedenen Trainingsformen betrifft, kann man Erbsen zählen, oder aber einmal relativ nüchtern und sachlich analysieren.

Eine Technik ist dazu da, in einer Kampfsituation den Gegner zu kontrollieren. Das gilt sowohl für den Kampf nach Regeln auf der Matte, als auch für den Kampf außerhalb des Dojo - in welchem Rahmen auch immer.

Eine Technik muss zunächst einmal in einer kontrollierten (=bekannten, vordefinierten) Situation gelernt werden. Dies ist die erste Stufe des Lernprozesses. Danach muss aber der Transfer in freie, unbekannte Situationen beginnen. Hierzu kann Uke:
1. Widerstand leisten ohne anders zu agieren
2. anders agieren/reagieren, aber dabei keinen größeren Widerstand leisten
3. frei verteidigen (Widerstand plus Reaktion)
4. selbst ebenfalls Angreifen

Diese Übungsformen sollten allen Judoka vertraut sein. Sie stellen sozusagen einen schrittweisen Übergangsprozess von der geschlossenen Situation (Kata) zur offenen Situation (Ranori) dar.

Und jetzt Überraschung, Überraschung - das gab es grundsätzlich schon in den Koryu. Von Kito-ryu weiß man das ziemlich genau. Aber natürlich hat CK vollkommen recht damit, dass wir das nicht vor der Folie unserer heutigen Vorstellungen sehen müssen. Wir wissen, dass sie das im Grundsatz gemacht haben - aber wie es im Detail aussah, ist gegangen.

Ich gehe mit meiner These sogar so weit zu sagen, dass es bedingt durch den Dai-Nippon-Butokukai ab Ende 19./ab 20 Jahrh. zu solch einer Durchmischung und zu so starken Einflüssen des Kodokan-Judo auf alle anderen Jujutsu- Schulen gekommen ist, dass diese gerade noch mit Mühe ihre alten Kata weiter pflegen so gut sie können und ansonsten eher Kodokan-Judo betreiben, als ihre Koryu.
I founded a new system for physical culture and mental training as well as for winning contests. I called this "Kodokan Judo",(J. Kano 1898)
Techniques are only the words of the language judo (Cichorei Kano, 24.12.2008)

Deshi
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Re: Beschreibung Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu

Beitrag von Deshi » 04.02.2018, 21:17

Cichorei Kano, vielen, vielen Dank für diese höchst ausführlichen Antworten!
Das war sehr Augen öffnend. Es muss wahrlich schwer sein, unter solchen Umständen an
verlässliche Antworten zu gelangen.

Nebenbei, für alle interessierten, hier Filmaufnahmen der von CK erwähnten ersten Vorfürung der
Kodokan Goshin Jutsu aus dem Jahr 1956:

https://vimeo.com/97201380

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